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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 14:26:29 GMT -5
Post by MemphisGM on Jul 14, 2013 14:26:29 GMT -5
Sorry about the tone of my message in the Iggy resign, and I'm not angry or anything. I just want things to be fair and equal, and keep everyone sharp to keep that in mind when evaluating transactions in the league.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 15:06:31 GMT -5
Post by octstuff23/MagicGM on Jul 14, 2013 15:06:31 GMT -5
Dont be angry - Nicolas Batum 24 y/old very productive player in early ESPN ranking placed in 10th position - $6.000.000 David Lee 30 y/old still very productive but now have young growing players that will steal some points from him , healthy Bogut who will get some boards for him and new addition og Iggy that will steal little bit of everything ,and in same ranking he is in position #30 (maybe little to low but probably should be about 15th) was denided for $7.000.000. Well i will be honest here - i was about to offer more then $8.000.000 for Lee but when i saw Batum offer i said why not to try and when i saw that Batum is approved i was 100% sure that my offer need to be approve - i mean i would still pay 7M for Lee while he will be 35 y/old. But nah Batum was injured few times , ok my idea is to re-sign Steph Curry for $6.000.000 we all know about his ankle , stats , ESPN rank , production - it dosent matter i mean Batum can be injured , yes he is only one that can be. Dont be angry - i am for both of us.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 16:24:26 GMT -5
Post by Miege22 on Jul 14, 2013 16:24:26 GMT -5
I'd really like to hear from everyone on this topic. I feel I've made myself perfectly clear in my thoughts on all of these signings.
(No need to apologize either, Memphis. What you brought up is EXACTLY what I was afraid of when Batum went through.)
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 16:30:33 GMT -5
Post by moltreszwarriors on Jul 14, 2013 16:30:33 GMT -5
I am fine with the Batum for $6,000,000. A little low perhaps, but just slightly. Iggy, on the other hand, had a down year, and still had comparable value to Batum. So Batum in a career year had the same value as Iggy in a down year. Fantasy wise, Iggy is a far superior player, and I think that $7,000,000 would be a fairer offer.
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Tampa Bay Bull Sharks
Moderator
2012 NBA Champions, 2015 NBA Champions, 2016 NBA Champions, 2024 GM League Cup Champions
Posts: 2,922
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 16:58:26 GMT -5
Post by Tampa Bay Bull Sharks on Jul 14, 2013 16:58:26 GMT -5
Batum was a hard evaluation. I was hung up on it for a while. I don't think anything less than $6M would have sufficed. Here was my conundrum: does Batum's potential warrant more money? Debateable. Is $6M enough for a career 11, 2, and 4 player? I think so.
I understand that Batum is showing progress in his young career and that this could end up being a huge steal in a couple years, but based on the numbers, I don't have an issue with it. I don't think Batum warrants $8M... Maybe $7M would have been better, but it is what it is.
As for Iggy, I think he is a better fantasy option and demands more money than Batum. Not a lot more... But definitely more than $6M.
I get why some will be angry with this. You have your right to your opinions and you know, that's why it's good we discuss topics like this. I agree with Miege though -- we need to carefully evaluate signings and take the time to get it right.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 17:14:30 GMT -5
Post by HawkEye on Jul 14, 2013 17:14:30 GMT -5
I voted for Batum's new contract only to realize it was low for his potential but some how it still went thru. It would be a catastrophe if we would not correct this. Too late to change Batum's contract but we can start doing it right with Iggy's. Can't blame Grizz owner, you had a valid point.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 17:37:20 GMT -5
Post by octstuff23/MagicGM on Jul 14, 2013 17:37:20 GMT -5
So we are making offers based on what ? last year ? thats what Hawks said in my post (Lee after great season) or career what Richardson is saying. I feel like Batum was voted based on career and Lee based on last season. That is my understanding what i can read here so please explain me if i am wrong because i can see something is not fair here. Again Iggy is denied as well because of his career so where is consequence here. I cant read explanation when you care just about last season and not about future and then you are looking 2-3 seasons back in other player and then saying that Batum need to prove again.Only thing Batum have to do it stays healthy and none will guarantee this and it dosent matter it is him Iggy or anyone else.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 17:58:10 GMT -5
Post by moltreszwarriors on Jul 14, 2013 17:58:10 GMT -5
I would re-signs should be voted on by a combination of career, last season, and future potential/real life future role. Depending on what stage of a career the player is in, some factors matter more than others. Iggy has had a phenomenal career and he appears set to continue having that phenomenal career. $5,000,000 therefore isn't enough.
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Tampa Bay Bull Sharks
Moderator
2012 NBA Champions, 2015 NBA Champions, 2016 NBA Champions, 2024 GM League Cup Champions
Posts: 2,922
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 18:43:24 GMT -5
Post by Tampa Bay Bull Sharks on Jul 14, 2013 18:43:24 GMT -5
So we are making offers based on what ? last year ? thats what Hawks said in my post (Lee after great season) or career what Richardson is saying. I feel like Batum was voted based on career and Lee based on last season. That is my understanding what i can read here so please explain me if i am wrong because i can see something is not fair here. Again Iggy is denied as well because of his career so where is consequence here. I cant read explanation when you care just about last season and not about future and then you are looking 2-3 seasons back in other player and then saying that Batum need to prove again.Only thing Batum have to do it stays healthy and none will guarantee this and it dosent matter it is him Iggy or anyone else. I didn't say that I vote strictly based on career numbers. I used that as an example. Batum's health was not really a big factor for me -- he isn't that injury prone. I looked at his career numbers, plus his most recent season and felt like $6M was fine. Like I said, $7M and we probably aren't having these conversations. Was $6M too low? Maybe. Batum definitely had his best season so far last year. Maybe he should get a bit more. When we vote on re-signs, we should be voting on a variety of factors - which is what makes it so difficult. I, like many of you, think Batum has a promising future, but should an owner be forced to overpay for potential? That's the big question here. I think potential is part of it, just like a player's production. But where do we draw the line? Like I said, it was a tough re-sign. I don't have any humility if we got it wrong, but when I looked through previous re-signs for SFs, considered where Batum ranks among the SFs in the game and what those SFs are making, and looking at his recent season PLUS career numbers, I thought $6M was the minimum amount he should receive.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 19:57:47 GMT -5
Post by zephyr on Jul 14, 2013 19:57:47 GMT -5
I'm only responding because I felt as if Memphis' re-sign thread was firing shots:
I didn't really expect Batum to be approved -- in my opinion, I lowballed, and that is because it was the first thread posted. Because of the second chance rule on re-signs, there really was not very much risk in coming up with such a low offer, and no other offers had been posted to which it could be compared. That's also why I didn't include much of an explanation: if I started to talk about Batum in the post, it would have been pretty evident that I valued him higher than $6M.
I also don't see a problem with voters' opinions changing throughout the re-sign period. If they retrospectively see a problem with a contract, in my opinion, they have the authority to vote with that in mind on future problems. If that means they remember the Batum contract and try to get me to bid higher next year, then so be it.
To address the Iggy thread, which I hope it was not, but read like it was spiteful: there really isn't anything in the rules that tells us what voters are looking at in terms of re-signing. I agree with moltresz in his cocktail of parameters. If we look at Batum vs. Iggy historically, Iguodala averages 15-5-6 with half a steal and 1.7 blocks. Batum has averages of 11-4-2 with a block and a steal. You've already posted their '12-'13 stats. Batum clearly has a probability of further development while Iggy has peaked, or in his peak. In regard to his injury history, he had surgery to repair a torn labrum in '09. He played hurt for a majority of the second half of last season, finally deciding to shut it down in late April. For a player that's been in the league for five years, I'd definitely count that as an injury risk.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 20:03:39 GMT -5
Post by Miege22 on Jul 14, 2013 20:03:39 GMT -5
The re-sign voting differs from the trade voting in that the way in which mods vote differs depending on what each mod is looking for. Trades are a little more even as most are willing to pass a trade through, unless its completely egregious. However, re-signs depend on what each mod values the most, and I like that we have mods that emphasize different aspects. I think it makes for better balance in the league, long-term.
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Resigns
Jul 14, 2013 20:15:45 GMT -5
Post by studiscus(Vegas) on Jul 14, 2013 20:15:45 GMT -5
Batum was low and so was Iggy.
What are we debating here?
If you want resigns to be unbiased let a few more people vote on it. Maybe two team owners from each division, majority rules.
Trades are pretty cut and dry, I think it was a bad move to approve Batum and I guess thats why we are having this discussion now. Let me know what I can do to help.
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Resigns
Jul 15, 2013 1:39:35 GMT -5
Post by octstuff23/MagicGM on Jul 15, 2013 1:39:35 GMT -5
If $6M is low but ok for Batum - $7M is low but ok for Lee , but i dont get it why you are aprroved one not both , Lee is career 14.9 points 9.8 reb 2.4 ass - no blocks , no steals - he is a big man he is 30 y/old and have Curry/Thompson/Barnes/Iggy/Bogut next to him , he will loose stats and he lost 80% of games in play-offs i guess he is injury threat too. $7M for Lee in my opinion was more fair then what Batum was re-signed for.
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Resigns
Jul 15, 2013 5:54:32 GMT -5
Post by MemphisGM on Jul 15, 2013 5:54:32 GMT -5
It's good to see an active discussion on the subject. I have no problem with not getting Iggy for 5 million, as I think that's too low too, but I want to make sure that the Batum resignings don't become the standard. Also, I'm hearing conflicting things; did Batum have a career year, or an injury year? As I said, he only missed 6 games on average over the last 3 seasons, so I don't think he's a high injury risk (maybe a little). But he did play a number of games injured, so I understand what Wiz is saying. But then, saying that Iggy on a down year was as good as Batum in a career year is not a fair statement, as Batum's numbers were down because of his injury. That said, and the fact that Batum has improved steadily each season, I think Iggy shouldn't cost more than Batum. If I were to offer Iggy for Batum on equal contracts, I'm fairly sure I will get shot down.
I do like to ask you here before I file it officially, would you approve Iggy on 6,5? I used my first try to make a statement, and it would be a shame to lose out on him because of that.
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Resigns
Jul 15, 2013 8:44:53 GMT -5
Post by Miege22 on Jul 15, 2013 8:44:53 GMT -5
Octstuff, You are making some very good arguments... and they all would have been much more beneficial to the Lee re-sign had they been posted in the actual re-sign thread. I don't think many owners here realize that these re-signs are essentially the equivalent of arbitration hearings. One of the advantages of re-signs is that you are retaining a player well below his market value. If you are going to attempt to go even lower than that, then convince everyone they are worth what you are offering. Come to the table with facts and stats. That was a big reason I approved Memphis' Iggy re-sign (though it was not passed, which is a shame because that argument was very good). Memphis came to the table with several thoughts, and he backed them with some very good numbers. At the end of the day, the majority felt it was just too low for Iggy, but the idea was solid. I think a lot can be learned from this re-sign bid on Dirk: miege.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=yes&action=display&thread=2103
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